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Brakes
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Brakes Reply with quote

Havenít heard anything about brakes yet.
The front of my rig has two 6-piston Tokiko calipers using semi metallic pads.
The sidecar has a single piston Tokiko from the rear of a ZX10
The rear is the stock Honda 6 piston caliper with semi metallic pads.
I plumbed the brakes with braided lines. To the rear master cylinder I linked one piston of the rear caliper, the sidecar caliper and one of the 6 piston calipers on the front. The other 6-piston caliper on the front I linked to the front master cylinder. Seems to work very well. Step on the rear brake rig seem to squat evenly and If I need to really stop the front brakes added to this stops fairly quickly.
The problem I have is I havenít anything to compare it to, it feels great to me.
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rig that I built last year before the five way bypass operation (too many hot sausage sandwiches ya know) never was really finished. I had built the sidecar, added a modified rear suspension, swaybar and converted to small (135R15) car tires on centerline wheels modified to mount to the K100 Hubs. It still had the stock front end on it and stock brakes.
Ran it around here a little late in the summer and then took it to the Hack'd Reunion down in W.Va.. That trip confirmed that at least two things were lacking. Really three. It handled fairly well but needed more braking power, more tire on the road to handle more braking power and of couse a different fron tend. So..after debating on which way to go with the front end a center hub front end is under construction. Also a different subframe and a conversion to larger tires is under way. The rear brakes will remain the stock BMW K100 caliper and disc but will be operated via the hand brake lever. The front brake will be a Wilwood 4 piston caliper (or two) on a vented disc. ( I did hear that these calipers were quite sensitive to the weather but it is all I have for now)
I have not really decided what the sidecar brake will be but plan to have one. The front and sidecar brake will operate off of a foot pedal which activates a dual AFCO master cylinder through a balance bar setup. I did a lot of thinking on it and finally decided to try this partially integrated system. Maybe I am wrong but I just felt
that having the rear brake independant may be a decent solution for many reasons....guess we'll have to see how it pans out.
How do the rest of you guys have your bakes hooked up? All together like Bill M., seperated totally, partially or what? And what was your experience with other setups that made you decide to go the way you are now? The Good? The bad? The Ugly Question Question
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never got a reply on this question related to how various rigs have their braking systems hooked up. (Integrated totally, totally seperate, sidecar seperate, sidecar with rear, sidecar with front..etc). I bet others are curious too..come on guys , what ya got goin on ?? Very Happy
>>How do the rest of you guys have your bakes hooked up? All together like Bill M., seperated totally, partially or what? And what was your experience with other setups that made you decide to go the way you are now? The Good? The bad? The Ugly?<<
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my wife's R80RT / EML Tour T, which I guess is a MPS (Medium Performance Sidecar) we went with a totally integrated system. This was done because she does not have fingers on her right hand. She can work the throttle using a throttle rocker but could not operate the regular front brake lever. We used a VW beetle master cylinder with the BMW fluid resevoir. The BMW pedal was retained. Proportioning valves are used to control pressure to both the rear and sidecar brakes and its all plumbed with braided stainless lines. It works prett well, does require a little more pedal pressure than I would like, but with firm pressure it stops quickly and straight.

On my K11RS / EML the sidecar and rear wheel brakes are integrated using a slightly larger master cylinder. The front uses the stock BMW calipers and disks. The antilock brake system is retained. (the rear system pulses both the rear and the sidear brake, but only uses a sensor on the rear wheel.)

I can make the front antilock trigger if I hit them hard on smooth concrete, but rarely the back. Other than the times I triggered them on purpose I've never felt them activate. All of which brings up a question, some CHS conversions do away with the antilock brake system. I've even heard of some removing them from solo bikes in order to get a more "solid" brake feel.

What feeling does anyone have on retaining antilock brakes on a HPS?

Mike
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93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes Reply with quote

bmcsheehy wrote:

The rear is the stock Honda 6 piston caliper with semi metallic pads.


Bill:

I'd be interested to know/see more of this 6 piston rear brake caliper, and the method by which it is mounted. As stock, the Bandit rear brake was weak - with a heavier wheel, it is now hopelessly overwhelmed, even with a SS braided line. It is but a simple single piston brake caliper design - but i cannot see how i can adapt a multi-pot brake caliper meant for the front end to my rear brake carrier - the caliper mount holes are cast in entirely incompatable positions.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes Reply with quote

Bandit Bill wrote:
bmcsheehy wrote:

The rear is the stock Honda 6 piston caliper with semi metallic pads.


Bill:

I'd be interested to know/see more of this 6 piston rear brake caliper, and the method by which it is mounted.


Hi Bill,
The rear brake caliper is stock on the blackbird. There are two ports on the caliper. onecontrols 4 pistons and the other controls 2 pistons. The way that it is plumed right noe, I am only using 2 pistons. You could have any combination of pistons. 2, 4 , or 6. I'll get some photo's if you want, but like I said it's factory Honda Black bird. CBR1100XX
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: Brakes Reply with quote

bmcsheehy wrote:
Bandit Bill wrote:
bmcsheehy wrote:

The rear is the stock Honda 6 piston caliper with semi metallic pads.


Bill:

I'd be interested to know/see more of this 6 piston rear brake caliper, and the method by which it is mounted.


Hi Bill,
The rear brake caliper is stock on the blackbird. There are two ports on the caliper. onecontrols 4 pistons and the other controls 2 pistons. The way that it is plumed right noe, I am only using 2 pistons. You could have any combination of pistons. 2, 4 , or 6. I'll get some photo's if you want, but like I said it's factory Honda Black bird. CBR1100XX


Very interesting, Bill. I found a photo of the Blackbird Nissin 3-pot brake caliper, and the brake caliper carrier on an ebay advert, then did some research on rotor specs for both the Bandit and the CBR1100XX - 260 mm and 256 mm rotor diameter respectively. Be interesting to know what the rotor offset differential is, if any. If i can get a brake caliper assembly off of ebay cheap enough, it may well be worth some experimentation in a future project. Smile

Thanks Bill
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Bill, I said the rear was a 6 piston caliper, l got it confused with the front calipers. The stock caliper on the rear of the Blackbird is 3 piston and you can use 1,2, or 3 pistons.Got some pictures.




Honda CBR1100XX
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Tim,


Is the scoop on the front wheel for cooling the brakes?
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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TimKillmeyer



Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 34
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmcsheehy wrote:
To Tim,

Is the scoop on the front wheel for cooling the brakes?


Yeah, Bill. There is a scoop in the front and an opening (with a little deflector) that can only be seen on close inspection right next to the brake on the inside. My guess on ARMEC's thinking is that when you put a brake on the inside of what is essentially a car wheel it doesn't get the air it really needs to cool properly in heavy use.

But when you rarely use the brakes I guess it doesn't really matter, right? Cool

ARMEC says they are: "Formula III Front Double Disc Brake
with 4 Calipers fully integrated." Something else I read gave me the impression that they actually are from some kind of Formula race car, though I can't find the specific quote.

The lever works the front and sidecar and the pedal works all three wheels.
Here's another view:


When I went to pick it up after buying it on eBay, I asked the previous owner about the scoop since I hadn't really noticed it on the pics and he said he thought it "cooled the transmission or something." I guess he thought that because it looks like it goes up into the engine. Even after putting 2500 miles on it (in 3 years) he never noticed the hole next to the brake on the inside. Question

Tim
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone run rubber brake lines?
I run braided stainless, I am having a proplem with brake fading on the front wheel. I use a vacumm bleeder on the lines, but I don't think I got all the air out. What are some methods other people use? Question
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmcsheehy wrote:
Does anyone run rubber brake lines?
I run braided stainless, I am having a proplem with brake fading on the front wheel. I use a vacumm bleeder on the lines, but I don't think I got all the air out. What are some methods other people use? :?:


Are your brakes fading - that is, work fine after a long straight, but don't work as well (and the lever travel is greater) on the sixth corner in a row - or are they just mushy - that is, they don't have a firm feel at any time? Or do they work fine mostly, but sometimes suddenly go away?

Mushy brakes can definately be improved by stainless lines (good ones, anyway). Fading brakes can be improved by (a) better pads; (b) new fluid; (c) better rotors; (d) better calipers. If you've got stainless lines already, try out some sport bike brake pads (EBC make some good ones in various compounds) and change your fluid completely with some fresh DOT 5.1 fluid.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Paul,
I am currently using DP brand pads
I get one good hard braking, then not much anything after that. Mine are defiantly fading.
You mentioned different compounds, How do I choose?
I am using fresh DOT 4 fluid, Whatís the scoop with DOT 5.1? Do you think I should change it?
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usefull information here;
http://www.rpmnet.com/techart/fluid.shtml

Motorcycle Happy
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:
>>I get one good hard braking, then not much anything after that.<<

Bill,
Do the brakes work okay after that first braking if you pump the lever? From my experience 'fading', or 'brake fade' is typically related to heating up.
Claude
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