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maybe a dumb question
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sidecarkeith



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: yorkshire uk

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: maybe a dumb question Reply with quote

Now this is not a criticsm in any way so please read this as a curious question.

I have noticed in several video clips on this site that the passengers in some clips tend to move to the side their about to take a corner.

I know on the lightweight racing sidecars the passengers tend is to try and keep power on the wheel by putting their weight over the wheel thats on the inside of the corner to gain traction.

Now not having advantage of such winding roads as on the videos or having a passenger who is capable of moving from side to side, I have never experienced the benefits of having a passenger moving their weight.

So my question is, Is there any real benefit of the passenger moving about in a road sidecar, or is it minimal advantage ?

Keith
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 591
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep it helps a lot on twisty roads when haling ass Big Grin god I love it so. I told Vic when she started ridding in the sidecar when we start running hard she could lean if she wanted or sit straight up as possible if she wanted but what ever she did do not change what you are doing after the first left and the first right turn.

Some body failing around will get you hurt quick when in zoom-zoom-zoom mode.
If you are out for a putt no matter.
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sidecarkeith



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: yorkshire uk

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of you know through my "introduce yourself" Anne is w/chair bound and due to no control of her legs, if I braked she would end up in a ball at the front of the cockpit.
To stop this Anne wears a NASCAR style seat belt which pins her in place, so never experienced the passenger moving around, Ralphs answer is of interest along with anyone elses.

Thanks
Keith Big Grin
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 591
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I new that Smile As long as things stay the same over there you adjust accordingly, but when things are moving around that is when things happen. I use to have a old dog named rusty. He rode in the sidecar for 10 years. the harder I went into a corner the harder he would lean. He was always the same for 9 years. Big Grin It took him a year to get his sidecar seating together Smile He only jumped out once. When his front feet left the sidecar he looked back at me and had this O SHIT look on his face and after laying around the shop for 3 of 4 days eating Hershey bars and my pain pills he never wanted to jump out again. Very Happy To this day best monkey I ever had. Smile
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sidecarkeith



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: yorkshire uk

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We 2went to hershey village, sweeeet Laughing Laughing
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JayBoy



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Lexington, KY

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Consistency is the key. I can remember a trip down Hwy 276 off of the Blueridge parkway in NC, when a left hander nealy put us in the guardrail. Shocked I didn't know what happened until later when my son Michael admitted that he zigged when he should have zagged. Bottom line, no movement at all is better then the wrong movement. Cool
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 833
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So my question is, Is there any real benefit of the passenger moving about in a road sidecar, or is it minimal advantage ?


What Ralph and Jay said. Consistancy is the key. With an active passenger when riding quickly, you really need to trust each other to be consistant. You develop a rhythm. Your situation would be considered to be very consistant. I think how quickly you could go through a series of tight turns would mostly depend on how your wife feels about being tossed around Big Grin as a passenger!
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sidecarkeith



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: yorkshire uk

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Movement of weight isn't a problem as once she's harnessed in she doesn't move at all.
As for how fast I go, I think it's more down to my confidence into going round bends.
A clue to how Anne feels about my present speed going round bends is, all I hear through the intercom is
"weeeeeee, yaaaaah oooow ! Again Again ! Laughing Laughing
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If my wife is along and I am going too fast for her it always seemed that my right leg got sore. Question
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Moike the Squid



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 123
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncronized swimmers have it easy compared to passenger/driver F1/F2 sidecar teams. A driver/passenger have to work together for many hours before they are tuned enough that being able to work as one unit becomes natural.

It's not something you're really going to be able to do on a HPS on the street... unless you happen to race F1/F2 sidecars as well. Better to tell a passenger to sit still and hold on.

Not only do I control traction on the rear wheel for laying down the power on our F1 rig, along with left to right corner ballast against cornering G's... I control traction on the front wheel, I control wheelspin, I control how tight or loose a line is through a corner, I contron how high the chair flies around a left hand turn, I make corrections when the driver makes mistakes.

Short of the brakes and the throttle, I have nearly as much control over the rig as Sarah does. It takes lots of practice to get in tune with a drivers style and how a particular chassis behaves.

We take out our classic street-legal front exit on the backroads to practice timing and synchronization at 'street speeds'. But you just can't get going fast enough to really 'feel' what the chassis is doing on the street, all you can do is keep it balanced and wear some cool spots on your leathers with the asphalt.

Of course, IMHO

-Mike-
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moike the Squid wrote:
I control traction on the front wheel,

-Mike-


Okay, I understand most of what you can do - but most of that involves left/right weight shifting. How do you affect front wheel traction?

On a solo bike front wheel traction is controlled by your throttle hand - but that probably doesn't work on a hack (too long of a wheelbase). So if a sidecar does start to lose the front end, how can you bring it back?
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Moike the Squid



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 123
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's say we're going around a tight right hander, since that's the easiest to describe. The chair on an F1 rig is on a left, so I'm out of the chair, with my right braced against the bodywork, holding on to the low outside handhold, left foot against the far back toehold.



If I feel the front end of the rig start to push or understeer, I can slide forward four or five inches, which is just enough of a change in CG to put some weight on the front tire and hook it up.

It's the same for the rear, if I feel the rear needs to come around a bit to tighten the line I can adjust my position to allow for slip and induce a slide to get the rig turned, then hook it back up when it's set to my satisfaction.

All of these are very small tuning movements in your body position once you have yourself planted for a corner.

Same goes for a left. Even with me in the chair hanging out I still control the traction on the front wheel by how far forward I lean.

Putting a little bite on the front wheel...



Putting lots of bite on the front wheel...

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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent explanation... thanks! I didn't think a few inches of fore/aft movement would make a significant difference.

Damn, you do get waaaaay over there on right hand bends, don't you? Ever thought of velcro pucks for your shoulders and elbows?
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Moike the Squid



Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 123
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, but I do have a velcro patch on the left asscheek of my suit for lefts.



I burned a hole in the ass of my leathers my first time out at RFR without the puck.

I should mention, that's not me in the larger pic in the Yamaha leathers with the elbow on the ground. That's another one of our nutter passengers on Gary's rig.

-Mike-
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 833
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, great explanation. I can see how the difference in pace on the track and street would change everything. I didnít realize the passenger of an F1 rig could affect the traction of the front wheel that much. Really interesting the passenger can do that from the sidecar side too.

I have a few other questions. Iím curious about steering effort and straight line stability on your F1 rig? When ever I see video of the F1 rigs, they often seem to be set up pretty ďlooseĒ. Meaning they always look to be a bit squirrelly to me. Iím wondering how yours is set up and what your preference is and Sara's preference? How much trail does it have and can you change it? Personally, Iím willing to trade off a little heavier steering for more stability. I can ride better if the rig is under steering slightly rather than over steering. Just curious about your thoughts on all that.
When we designed the ZX14 front end, we designed it to be adjustable so people can set the caster/trail to their own preference.

Thanks in advance.
bill
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