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definition of high performance sidecar
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ajouneyman



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: definition of high performance sidecar Reply with quote

Ok so I'm new to this . What is the definition of an HP street sidecar.
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sidebike



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 161
Location: Cabot Trail, Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The definition of a HPS.

HPS is a street legal sidecar that takes advantage of the latest technology used in modern rally and road racing sidecars.

Roger


http://hometown.aol.com/HPSidecars/index.html
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ajouneyman



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Help me here. That means only center hub stearing rigs are HP? or is there somthing beyond that.
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajouneyman wrote:
Help me here. That means only center hub stearing rigs are HP? or is there somthing beyond that.


Technically, if you wanted to be hardline on the definition - variants of the CHS setup would be fairly exclusive to the HPS definition. For example, the blue Yamaha currently the poster-child on the board has leading link - but it's high performance oriented. I wouldn't preclude it from the HPS definition for the LL front end.

The way i view it though, HPS is made up of more than the sum of the total parts.

My rig is a home brew, involving 3 year of labor that was built on a (relative) budget, within a limited skill set (which precluded CHS) but was built with HPS parameters in mind. It isn't a HPS, but it's close. Where it fails, is in the front end with the Leading Link - though it is effective, it is not near as precise in terms of handling characteristics or handling as a CHS would be - it's a shortcoming of the LL going off-camber when the front end is cornering. It in no way prevents me from safely going down the road with a lot of performance, but neither would i enter a rally and hope to compete against a CHS equipped rig.

HPS also combines other technological features and developments beyond the front end.

Horsepower is pretty important - if it can't sustain 100 mph, it's not got the juice to be considered HPS, in my opinion - it's a bench mark of sorts.

It can include a swaybar setup of sorts.

A small number have incorporated sidecar steering, and a hydraulic drive setup of the sidecar wheel - a very small number, more on an experimental basis.

An HPS often involves development of slipstreaming bodywork with aid of wind-tunnel tests.

Automotive radials and wheelsets borrowed from higher performance autos are pretty well mandatory, obviously.

The sidecar is generally of open top design, and usually of wide enough construction to enable the passenger to assist in manuvoring/weight shifting, as well as give the rig itself a wide track to aid in stability and flat cornering. This precludes my personal setup, right there.

I don't think that there is an exclusive, or conclusive list of what constitutes an HPS. I think it's also defined on how the pilot/driver runs the rig, rather than just the sum-total of it's parts.

Just because it don't meet the strictest interpretation of the HPS definition, doesn't mean it's any less fun in terms of a performance oriented sidecar setup.

I don't think there is any set definition per say, but i've been wrong before.
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Bandit Bill on this. If we tie the definition to strongly to the hardware may exclude the next big improvement.

In my mind its a desire to improve handling, power, braking, ride, over the normal sidecar setup. (What ever a normal setup is.)

It also has a lot to do with the driver. If I was driving a rig like Roger's or Doug's it would not be nearly as High Peformance.

Mike
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 833
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Yamaha currently the poster-child on the board has leading link"
Just an observation, I don't think you could call the Choda front-end a LL. I believe it's more CHS than LL.
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zentime wrote:
"Yamaha currently the poster-child on the board has leading link"
Just an observation, I don't think you could call the Choda front-end a LL. I believe it's more CHS than LL.


My bad.. the front end viewpoint was hard to tell - I thought i saw dual shocks on the front end profile - another look at it tells me there is only one shock on the right hand side.
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ajouneyman



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
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Location: Saint Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS ! The tutorial was great. I hope to meet you all in Maggie Valley.
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sidecarkeith



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: yorkshire uk

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not wishing to upset anyone, but surely a sidecar isn't high powered, it's the bike you attach to it that makes it high powered. Question
High technology, yes Rolling Eyes
Sorry to sound picky Embarassed
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sidecarkeith wrote:
Not wishing to upset anyone, but surely a sidecar isn't high powered, it's the bike you attach to it that makes it high powered. :?:


Depends. If you're "old school" and attach a separate sidecar to an existing motorcycle, then yes. But dedicated race sidecars ("worms"), as well as some streetable machines (like Moike's, and like the Krauser Domani) are purpose-built three wheeled vehicles. So they weren't a motorcycle in the first place. Typically the engine is mounted in front of the driver, though - in the case of a F1 outfit, it's attached to the side of the frame, which runs down the middle of the vehicle.

There are other examples where the engine is in the sidecar's trunk.

I think the next step in HPS will be getting rid of two separate frames, with a bunch of bolts holding them together, and transition over to one purpose-built frame to which everything (suspension, engine, bodywork) attaches. Then we're no longer tied to buying a motorcycle and throwing away the (many) parts we don't need.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
>>I think the next step in HPS will be getting rid of two separate frames, with a bunch of bolts holding them together, and transition over to one purpose-built frame to which everything (suspension, engine, bodywork) attaches. Then we're no longer tied to buying a motorcycle and throwing away the (many) parts we don't need.<<

I think you are right as some have jumped over that line already.
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Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
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2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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sidecarkeith



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 336
Location: yorkshire uk

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends. If you're "old school" and attach a separate sidecar to an existing motorcycle, then yes. But dedicated race sidecars ("worms"), as well as some streetable machines (like Moike's, and like the Krauser Domani) are purpose-built three wheeled vehicles. So they weren't a motorcycle in the first place. Typically the engine is mounted in front of the driver, though - in the case of a F1 outfit, it's attached to the side of the frame, which runs down the middle of the vehicle.

Paul,
Your quite right with the purpose built sidecars being HP of course, what I was trying to point out was it surely must have something to do with the engine more than the design.
I know what your going to say only an idiot would put a low perfomance engine in a HP designed sidecar.



You see these qualify with all the above points, one frame HP spec body, just got a 50cc chain saw engine in. You see we English are nutty Laughing

On a serious point, what's "worms" Question
Do you have any lnks to Moike's & Domani, I've never heard of those two makes, please,
Keith
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sidecarkeith wrote:
Depends. If you're "old school" and attach a separate sidecar to an existing motorcycle, then yes. But dedicated race sidecars ("worms"), as well as some streetable machines (like Moike's, and like the Krauser Domani) are purpose-built three wheeled vehicles. So they weren't a motorcycle in the first place. Typically the engine is mounted in front of the driver, though - in the case of a F1 outfit, it's attached to the side of the frame, which runs down the middle of the vehicle.

Paul,
Your quite right with the purpose built sidecars being HP of course, what I was trying to point out was it surely must have something to do with the engine more than the design.
I know what your going to say only an idiot would put a low perfomance engine in a HP designed sidecar.



You see these qualify with all the above points, one frame HP spec body, just got a 50cc chain saw engine in. You see we English are nutty Laughing

On a serious point, what's "worms" Question
Do you have any lnks to Moike's & Domani, I've never heard of those two makes, please,
Keith


http://www.3wheelers.com/krauser.html

"Worm" is a term used for a purpose built asymmetrical racing rig. Formula 1 and 2 rigs typify this. Krauser is an early adopter of this sort of formerly exclusive racing heritage setup to the street.

Other 'nutters' like Moike actually play with the idea of putting their formula 1's on the street Smile
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Last edited by Bandit Bill on Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith,
Sorry I am butting in but I think the Domani reffered to was the Krauser Domaini..here is a link:
http://www.3wheelers.com/krauser.html
Moike? He, Moike the Squid, is a member here
Worms:
Things used for fishin'. Can be plastic or live but not bolh.
Also a slang term for some racing sidecar designs
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great minds think alike Claude, and then there is you and I Smile
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