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Sidcar wheel steering pro's & con's???
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lemon



Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Yorkshire England

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Sidcar wheel steering pro's & con's??? Reply with quote

I am interested to find out more about side car wheel steered outfits(before i consider building it into my next project). It seems to be a popular option in europe ,But what are the advantages?and do they outweigh the complexity of the set up??
liam Confused
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no plans of incorporating steering sidecar wheel in my next project.
If it is not done perfectly, and even if it was, I think you canít get away from bump steer.
Major engineering and fabrication.
I have driven two rigs with sidecar steering. They turned very easy at slow speeds.
One was difficult for me to drive, the bump steer was an odd feel to me.
The owner was one of the fastest drivers I know. So itís something you can get use to I guess.
Thatís just me.
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 584
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They won't let you use it in sidecar racing for some reason, they say it is not fair. Smile Wonder what that is about Cool
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill M wrote( concerning sidecar wheel steering):
>>I have no plans of incorporating steering sidecar wheel in my next project.
If it is not done perfectly, and even if it was, I think you canít get away from bump steer.
Major engineering and fabrication. <<

Direct Hydraulics maybe?
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Claude Stanley

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2007
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydraulics would still give bump steer. Difficult to get the left/right ratio correct, too - remember you want a different steering ratio on left and right hand bends.

I'd go electrical. No bump steer; and it would be very easy to alter the steering ratio (little microcontroller circuit board with a mapping curve). Then you can play around with it - vary the steering from zero sidecar wheel steering on up. You could even make it speed sensitive - lots of sidecar wheel steer at low speeds (when you need it), much less on the highway.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph wrote:
They won't let you use it in sidecar racing for some reason, they say it is not fair. Smile Wonder what that is about Cool

You said they...
Who are they?
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Bandit Bill



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmcsheehy wrote:
Ralph wrote:
They won't let you use it in sidecar racing for some reason, they say it is not fair. Smile Wonder what that is about Cool

You said they...
Who are they?


Moike likely has the correct answer to this here, but i'm under the impression that sidecars in racing classes can have *no* suspension on the sidecar wheel, against the rules?
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From http://www.sidecarracers.com/f1rules.html

No suspension or steering of any kind will be allowed on the sidecar wheel. It must be solidly fixed to the chassis.


Another rule seems to prohibit simple single-arm center hub steering - you'd have to build a parallelogram unit:

Suspension of the front wheel must be designed so that under suspension action and in a straight-ahead position, the wheel shall only move vertically and in a single plane, relative to the motorcycle - the plane must be in driving direction. This must occur without changes to the camber or the sidetracking.

(Most units I've seen have been leading link - with only one inch of suspension travel).
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
From http://www.sidecarracers.com/f1rules.html

No suspension or steering of any kind will be allowed on the sidecar wheel. It must be solidly fixed to the chassis.


Another rule seems to prohibit simple single-arm center hub steering - you'd have to build a parallelogram unit:

Suspension of the front wheel must be designed so that under suspension action and in a straight-ahead position, the wheel shall only move vertically and in a single plane, relative to the motorcycle - the plane must be in driving direction. This must occur without changes to the camber or the sidetracking.

(Most units I've seen have been leading link - with only one inch of suspension travel).


Part of the reasoning behind having no suspension on the sidecar on closed course racing nachines is related to passenger saftey. These guys are already allowing their helmets to hit the track when hanging off and if suspension travel was involved it could be a real headache.
It also may be a rule to help keep costs from excuslting even more than they have on the racing machnes.
Steering sidecar wheels and of course sidecar wheel suspensions have been utilized on the rally type sidecars though. These are much more in line with what HPS rigs are thought to be. The guys do run very hard and are competitive. It has been said that the steering sidecar wheel did create bad effects when a rig would slide as it was such a controling factor when doing any corrective steering and had no consistancy in how it reacted and could not be predictably controlled due to the suspension loading and unloading. It has fallen from popularity so it seems but knowing racers it will probably surface again at some point.
To me the main advatage of it is that more lead can be run with less tire scrub on the street.
Bump steer problems can be alleviated with linkage or some type of hydraulic steering system. The hydraulic system woudl possible end up adding to unsprung weight and maybe the trade off would not be optimal.

True Ackerman both directions
wuld seem to be a total bag of worms if that is the goal. The only one I had been remotely associated with decided to just reduce how much the sidecar wheel steered and live with it at that.
Don;t want to ruffle any feathers but I think sidecar whel steering is a total waste of time and much more trouble than it is worth in actual function. Just an opinion.. and like they ay everyoen has one. Sorry Ralph Embarassed
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2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul's idea of electrical sidecar wheel steering would probably be the best, and from a systems engineering point of view fairly simple. A small processor could handle it with maybe a stepper motor to do the streering. Need some type of sensor to measure how much the front end is turning. Could be speed sensitive and could have toe in adjusteable from the handlebars.

Question
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go for it Mike...while you're at it add soem true ground effect and a sensor to move an overhead wing for optimum downforce .... then add a traction control system and an automatic weight jacking device. If you fited a remote control to th erig linked to a GPS device to keep it on track we coudl all just kick back and see how it does in complete saftey and solitude. If a few video camera were added to the rig and a few at choice places along the chosen course it would be a nice touch too.
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need a new project, the little machine shop down the road keeps calling to make sure I'm OK, seems since I finished the CHS project the owners getting behind in his kids college fund and boat payments. Laughing Laughing

(actually I have a much more improtant project, titanium sliders for a spark show, you guys thought the under carriage lights looked good going throught the tunnels on the blueridge, wait to you see SPARKS. Cool )
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mike. maybe this would be a nice touch in conjunction with your titanium stuff....
http://www.flamingkit.com/
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw that stuff when I was a kid around the harley shop in drive shaft and brass ex. Some around know what I am talking about:) It don't cost 40 bucks Smile

Butt what the hell do I know I just work at the car wash.
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