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Shocks & Handling
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: Shocks & Handling Reply with quote

Here is somthing I have learned and I don't know much. You may do things to make your rig handle better but until you have good shocks set up for your rig it will always be lacking. In order to set up your shocks first you need to know what your rig reacts in a particular situation and then you can start adjusting things. One thing at a time.

Yes a good shock set up is time consuming and can be expensive.

Speed and Handling is and always has been, for the most part a matter of money.

You can always set your rig up to get maximum handling if you under stand what it is doing.

My 2 cents worth.

No body ever listens to me anyway.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ralph, Question.
What type of shocks do you have? I have a KONI shock on the sidecar with adjustable dampening, custom pro shock on the front of bike and the stock shock on the back of my bike. All the shocks have adjustable dampening and adjustable compression. I also have been changing out the springs. I am pretty happy with it right now, but always looking for something better.

Bill McSheehy
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill
I have White Power shocks on the front and the sidecar. The front shock has rebound damping only and the sidecar shock has compression and rebound damping. The WP shocks are set up for a SideBike sidecar. On the rear I have a 8981 Penske that I had them set up for 400 lb over what there stock set up would be for a stock FJ. They changed the valveing and the spring rate. The rear shock has both compression and rebound damping. I can make the rig load for what ever I want to do.

The stock shocks are not designed to deal with the extra weight or force. On Jayís FJR1300 I had them build a rear shock for 450 lb more because the stock shock sucked to start with. I am going to replace the Fornell sidecar shock that came with the RDS sidecar with a Penske that has compression and rebound damping. I will replace the 2 front Fornell shocks with one shock but for now the front will do. I donít like changing a lot of stuff at once. I have improved the handling of Jayís rig 40%. That sounds like a lot but it didnít handle all that good out of the box.
I have also installed a steering damper and spring under the sidecar to keep the sidecar wheel from bump steering. Being able to control the compression and rebound damping is a must for the best zoom-zoom set up. I like zoom-zoom. Very Happy

Ralph
Hill Billy Engineering
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Last edited by Ralph on Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph wrote:
>>The front shock has compression damping only and the sidecar shock has compression and rebound damping. <<

Ralph,
Does the idea behind no rebound dampning have to do with weight transfer? Can you explain your thoughts on this?
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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JayBoy



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Lexington, KY

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have improved the handling of Jayís rig 40%


I have to correct his statement and say it was more like 100%. The stock shock was built to handle a 175lb rider (period). It seems the FJR shock is inadaquate for even two up riding or extra gear with any kind of sportiness. Once we put the rig together handling with the stock shock was difficult compared to his setup on the Commanche and my other FJ Sidebike. The front would wander over the slightest bumps, turns were twitchy and unpredictable Shocked , and bottoming out the shock was not hard to do. With the custom valved Penske shock and all the adjustments that come with it the straight line stability was vastly improved, the bump steer and wobble have all but disappeared, and the predictability of the rig in the turns is very confident inspiring in zoom mode. Twisted Evil

My guess is that most other stock sport bike shocks are also not suffecient to handle the additional 400-500 lbs of weight that a sidecar and a monkey add to the equation. (not to mention the additional rider lbs over 175 Laughing )!

"Food for thought"
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JayBoy



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Lexington, KY

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh another thing, you know how the bike handles if you have to get off the gas in the middle of a turn? (or any time the front wheel is not straight) You know what I'm talking about, the front end dips severly! On left hand turns the rig takes a sharp left as the rear unloads and transfers the weight to the front wheel and the right handers cause the sidecar to lift quickly and unexpectedly. Well, the rear shock reduced that significantly. :wink: I'll leave it to the engineers to explain this but as a rider it made a big difference.

In fact, the severity of the pull to the right upon acceleration and left when braking in a striaght line is improved as well.


Think safety!
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Jay you basically tightened up the rig with the heavier shocks right? Less movement from side to side and front to rear on the suspension? Do you run an anti-swaybar ?
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:30 am    Post subject: OOPS Reply with quote

Hi Claude
Embarassed ďThe front shock has compression damping only and the sidecar shock has compression and rebound damping.Ē

Sorry I have this backwards I am trying to find out how to edit my post. It should be ďfront shock has Rebound damping only and the sidecar shock has compression and rebound damping.

And Yes you can change the weight transfer rate with compression damping and rebound damping. I guess what you are doing is speeding up or slowing what happens when you shut down the throttle or run hard into a corner. I change my rebound damping on the front when Vic is in the sidecar. I will have to turn it up 2 clicks to stop it from wandering.
Compression damping seems to have a lot more effect on the backend of the bike and sidecar.
I could put you in the sidecar and show you in a minute.

Hehe Not sure if this helped, If not let me know
Ralph
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like to me that I will probably need to try a different shock and spring combination on the back of my rig. By what has been said here, weight transfer is an issue on my rig, I really donít like letting off the throttle going left. Went around a sharp left with the road pitched the wrong way a little too fast and almost ended up in the ditch.
All these winter boohooís aside, Itís still the funnest thing I have ever driven.
I look forward to summer time, I havenít had enough seat time yet, just finished building it. Not sure how much of this is my rigs suspension or how much is my driving ability.
Worship Iím sure with help from some seasoned veterans Iíll get it worked out.
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess the terminology I am familar with would be 'bump' and 'rebound' . On th eold Konis we had a ton of adjustment for each. I had just never heard of running zero on either but...hey..if it works it works.
Bump is when the swingarm goes 'up' from hitting a bump or being loaded in some fashion....and..'rebound ' is when it comes back to where it started. Are we on the same track..I have my doubts.
Claude, outa control in Pa.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:
>>...I really donít like letting off the throttle going left. Went around a sharp left with the road pitched the wrong way a little too fast and almost ended up in the ditch. ...<<

Heck nobody likes letting off the throttle..LOL. Seriously, I am wondering. When you say you almost ended up in the ditch..was it because the front end pushed (broke traction)..or did the rear end come around? Was this going into a turn or chopping off the throttle while in a turn? Was there braking involved?
Claude
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JayBoy



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Lexington, KY

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So Jay you basically tightened up the rig with the heavier shocks right? Less movement from side to side and front to rear on the suspension?


Correct.

Quote:
Do you run an anti-swaybar [/quote

I do not have a swaybar. First approach ( see Ralph's first post) was to get the rear shock and spring right with the additional weight Smile

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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 972
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude
Quote:
was it because the front end pushed (broke traction)..or did the rear end come around? Was this going into a turn or chopping off the throttle while in a turn? Was there braking involved?


Like I said, Might be possibly the drivers experience. Iíve been driving sidecars for a number of years, but HPS for only a few months. I was going to fast, I let of the throttle and was trying not to use the brakes. just kid of feathering them, not hard breaking. the weight transfer caused the rear of the bike to lift, the sidecar wheel was sliding and there was not a lot of control left, trying to steer in the direction of the slide to regain control. It was kind of fun looking back on it, the only thing that was scary about it was the rock wall I was headed for.
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 577
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:46 am    Post subject: new feelings Reply with quote

Smile Bill not to worry, It took me a year and a ride to Daytona to start to learn to ride or drive my Yamaha. Most every thing you have learned about ridding your other rigs has not much to do with your new rig.

Now Jay took to ridding his HPS like a duck to water. He didn't have to relearn to ride a sidecar. I trided to make him ride my old Z1 rig for a week so he would understand what a blessing a HPS really is. A short trip around the block was enough. Smile

I have found that I should NEVER chop the throttle or use the rear brake in or around a left hand corner. Refur to the oops album on my web page. Surprised I am better now. I had learn to trust the rig. I found out that I run out of nerve a long time before the rig runs out of handling.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose most who venture into the HPS rigs have had experience with more conventional sidecars. Do you all find the dynamics , or handling characteristics, to be bascically the same only 'kicked up a notch'? If not what do you feel is different. Not talking about speed here Smile
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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