An international forum for people interested in modern high performance road going sidecars. Forum Index An international forum for people interested in modern high performance road going sidecars.

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Custom exhaust considerations

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    An international forum for people interested in modern high performance road going sidecars. Forum Index -> HPSidecar Technical Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
IanJ



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject: Custom exhaust considerations Reply with quote

First, I must apologize that I'm not exactly discussing a HP sidecar, but rather my relatively stodgy old '82 Goldwing/EML GT. However, that aside...

I'm looking into having a custom exhaust system made -- I'd do it myself, but lack the tubing bending and welding equipment/skills -- and I have one or two concerns. The primary concern, which is not sidecar-specific, is whether putting the exhaust between the sidecar and the bike, on the right of the bike (and thus having a several times longer exhaust path, plus bends, for the left-hand cylinders) will cause performance problems. I expect to rejet when I get this exhaust question sorted out, and I suspect the left-hand carbs will get a different jetting than the right in order to run correctly. Can anyone speak to this? I know that cars and some motorcycles commonly get different lengths of exhaust tubing for different cylinders or cylinder banks, but I don't know if one which is this relatively extreme will cause problems.

The secondary concern is whether it's a clever idea to put a standard oval car muffler between the bike and the car. It seems to me (and I'm a newbie, only had this, my first rig, for a month or two, although I've been motorcycling and wrenching for years) that moving the exhaust system weight inboard of the bike can only be an advantage, but are there disadvantages I'm not considering? Heat concentration next to the fiberglass car body? Weight distribution weirdness for which my inexperience has left me unprepared?

I did search around a little bit on the board, but didn't find anyone addressing this topic. From the research I've done, anyone doing a custom exhaust for a sidecar usually goes a bit further than I am and does something very cool looking involving gracefully arcing pipes and CF mufflers. I'm more looking for "cheap and quiet" with weight centralization being a nice side effect.

The bike currently carries Jardines "Road Rumblers" or something ridiculous like that -- functional, but loud, consisting only of a few baffles. If I could make this rig silent for under US$500, I would. The car muffler seems like an excellent start, though, and presumably could be replaced at a later date if I came up with a better/quieter/lighter muffling system. The quote I have right now is US$150-250 to make a system which goes from my headers to the tailpipe.

I'd appreciate hearing thoughts anyone has on the topic. I'm particularly interested in solutions others have come up with for this kind of problem.
_________________
2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 584
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you need to buy a wire welder and learn how to use it Big Grin Some of my street rod buddies build there own headers. You do need to learn how to weld!!! You can buy curves of any kind out of a street rod mag. Wire Welder/with gas. Good Luck and welcome to getting what you want Wink
_________________
"So Soon Old & So Late Smart"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
IanJ



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granted, I definitely need to learn how to weld. Not a project I can undertake (for a slew of reasons) before I want to have a different exhaust system on the Goldwing, though.

So, I take it you can't see any problems with such a system, at least in theory?
_________________
2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 584
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

N/P Good luck on finding someone with the time to do what you want. This would be a labor of love me thinks Smile
_________________
"So Soon Old & So Late Smart"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about replacing the original?
EBAY
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=35596&item=4563195179

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=35596&item=4563082581

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=35596&item=4563863987

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=35596&item=4563690186

Big Grin
_________________
Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The secondary concern is whether it's a clever idea to put a standard oval car muffler between the bike and the car. It seems to me (and I'm a newbie, only had this, my first rig, for a month or two, although I've been motorcycling and wrenching for years) that moving the exhaust system weight inboard of the bike can only be an advantage, but are there disadvantages I'm not considering? Heat concentration next to the fiberglass car body? Weight distribution weirdness for which my inexperience has left me unprepared?


IanJ, you might want to reconsider putting a single exhaust on the sidecar side of the bike. If you ever intend to carry a passenger or a pet, it would be kinder to have the exhaust on the side opposite the sidecar to keep both the noise and the exhaust fumes away from the passenger. Exhaust gas and noise getting to the passenger can be much more of an issue than any perceived benefit of weight centralization of having the weight of the exhaust on the sidecar side.

BTW, welcome to the forum!
_________________
CBR1100XX/EZS
1973 MotoGuzzi V7sport

will August ever come............
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
IanJ



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replacing the original: I've given that some serious thought, but it always comes back to the fact that every Goldwing exhaust I've ever seen has been at least slightly rotted, so I despair of actually finding one which is actually worth spending the money on. One of the reasons I incline toward a custom exhaust is that at least then I'd have a "new," rust-free system, which could be replaced by anyone who can weld and bend pipe (ie, at a shop in almost any town in the country). The downside is I don't know what the actual sound would be, and I worry it might end up sounding like that blatty exhaust note "the kids these days" seem to enjoy on their lowered Civics. The stockers would not have that problem.

Passenger noise/smell: an excellent point, and exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to hear. I'll give that some consideration. I admit that the thought of putting the exhaust inbetween the bike and car also appeals to my aesthetic sense, since it would be tucked nicely out of the way.

Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming. (And thanks for the welcome, I've been lurking here for a month or so.)
_________________
2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Custom exhaust considerations Reply with quote

IanJ wrote:
I know that cars and some motorcycles commonly get different lengths of exhaust tubing for different cylinders or cylinder banks,


Actually, most motorcycle exhausts, and performance car exhausts, take great pains to make all the pipes equal length. If you don't, you will have a very lumpy power curve.

Also consider that the stock exhaust (which is a four-into-two, correct?) has a fair amount of flow. If you replace it with a four-into-one, make sure that it has at least the same flow - the one single collector pipe and muffler must flow at least twice what each single one did on the stocker.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
IanJ



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct, the stock exhaust (and the one currently on the bike) is a two-into-one on each side, with a crossover between the pipes.

I don't trust the shop I've found to do anything more advanced than follow simple directions. Maybe I would be better off finding a hotrod shop -- I'd rather pay more and be happy with what I get than pay less and have to do it multiple times. I knew fabricating an exhaust couldn't be as simple as it seemed.

Hmm. Thinking
_________________
2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IanJ,
Yes, welcome to the board. the following is just some food for thought.
The issue of running the exhaust on the side of the bike away from the sidecar is truly worth considering. Fumes for the passenger CAN be a real world situation with some sidecar rigs. With the exhaust on the other side this would never be a problem (maybe). Keeping the pipes away from where the sidecar mounts are etc may also be an advantage in some ways depending upon the design you end up with.
The crossover pipe you mentioned is an equalizer of sorts but it also allows smaller dimeter tubing to be used than what may be used without it while obtaing the same back pressure theoretically.
The car muffler is a good idea.
You may want to get on the net and search out 'header design' if you are concerned about having a balanced system. Bends make a difference as well as tubing diameter and equal length tubes. It will, of course, depend on you on how anal you really want to get with all of this.
Really, the best system for you would be to run the exhaust tubes up to a turbo mounted either where the aircleaner is now of maybe where the present fuel tank is. Then most of the design parameters for 'correct' headers would mean very little:-) Just kidding..well maybe not. Question
_________________
Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
cbxtacy



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Fayetteville, NC USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to be nuts to turbo-charge a perfectly good motorcycle. I'm an expert on that. I have two turbo-CBX's and a GPZ750Turbo Kaw. I'm also (probably) an expert on nuts. Atleast I've never been on a skateboard behind one of my turbo bikes using a water ski tow rope. That could be because I havn't found someone I trust to drive them, yet. Good luck with your exhaust.
_________________
if you're not having fun, quit what you're doing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuts is not a bad thing is it? I hope not. Any aren't you the one that is thinking of putting a small block chevy sidecar rig on the road? YEAH..NUTS IS GOOD...LOL.
_________________
Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
cbxtacy



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Fayetteville, NC USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have learned my lesson. Why turbocharge a miniscule internal combustion engine when you can start with a chevy V-8. 350 c.i. small block. Small? Oh no. Here I go again. 502 Brodek? Don't they make turbo kits for them? Ah, my faithful Summit catalog. No BIG block turbo's, thankfully. But they do have 6-71 and 8-71 blower kits. Sanity is soo painful. I have to restrain myself and go with my small block with the trickflow twisted wedge heads. Such is life. Laughing
So much for a well orchestrated thread hijack, back to the exhaust. I have a spare 1100 Wing exhaust in half a**ed condition. Headers are good. would you be interested, IanJ? Free? I drive a big truck across the country and could probably get them up to your part of the country by the end of summer.
_________________
if you're not having fun, quit what you're doing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
IanJ



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the offer, but I'm trying to avoid putting pre-rusted equipment on the bike. Big Grin

After the discussion about equal header lengths, I stopped into the local Ducati dealer, and found that they would sell me a very clean set of stock Monster exhaust cans for about $50. This is on the theory that a simple header system could be constructed from what I have and from those cans, which would have no problems with unequal lengths. Unfortunately, the Monster cans have an even smaller pipe on them than the stock system, so I suspect I would be introducing more back pressure -- it would definitely be a tradeoff. But then, if midrange torque increases at the expense of high-end power (which is my understanding, if backpressure is increased), I wouldn't be too sad, since I spend way more time in the midrange than the high end (I'm gonna have to get this HP Sidecar tattoo scraped off now, aren't I Snail ).

I still like the idea of a car muffler, and am still considering that. I think if I go that route, I want to find a hotrod shop or a Harley customizer to fab the headers for me (since they're presumably used to making weirdo bends for motorcycles). The ideal system would seem to be a three-pronged H shape, with the two pipes coming together in front of the rear tire, and then one fat pipe heading back to the muffler. I don't know if there's really enough space for that, though.

My goal is to do all this for less than $300, but I'm also aware that if I start making experimental modifications to a motorcycle, I have to toss price limits out the window.
_________________
2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
IanJ



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the rig over to my welding-skilled friend Aaron's house yesterday, and we spent some time brainstorming what could be done with the old Goldwing. After a bit of digging around, we hit upon this brilliant scheme: an expansion chamber directly downstream of the 2-into-1 header pipes, which exits to a car muffler (muffler not shown in this sketch, since this is primarily for the benefit of the muffler shop folks when I go to get some pipe pieces made up):



The green cannister will be made out of what was most likely a mortar shell storage case (2.5 foot long, 6" diameter cylinder with a lovely locking cap). It's transparent, again, to ensure that the exhaust shop people understand what I'm talking about.

This solves the problem of unequal-length headers, as well as providing an extra expansion chamber, thus making the system theoretically even quieter. I'm pretty sure I'll have to rejet the carbs once this is all done, but it's looking like it'll be a fairly effective system for very little money.

If anyone has comments on this, I'd like to hear them, although it's the best system I've been able to come up with given the space involved.
_________________
2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    An international forum for people interested in modern high performance road going sidecars. Forum Index -> HPSidecar Technical Discussion All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group