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"A" arm C.H.S.
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: "A" arm C.H.S. Reply with quote

It would seem that this type of suspension would much easier to fabricate than the typical C.H.S. as seen on most of the rigs on this forum. Is there a reason why this style of front suspension is not used more often? I have a photo, but do not know how to post it here.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 981
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To post pictures:
http://hpsidecars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6
Yes, picture would help. Big Grin

Do you mean the upper and lower control arm pivots to the side of the front wheel? Question
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: "A" arm c.h.s. photo Reply with quote

Here goes. I'll try to post the picture.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 981
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my opinion only, not saying one is better than the other. Not trying to piss anyone off. Buddies

On that type or front suspension, as the wheel travels up and down it also moves side to side. I donít think it moves side to side enough to matter. Thinking

I built mine with the upper and lower control arm pivot behind the wheel. When my wheel travels up and down there is no side to side movement. Also as I use up the suspension, like under hard braking, the trail increases making the rig more stable. Big Grin

As far as manufacturing, both have basically the same components. But there is more room to fit everything on the one pictured.
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:01 pm    Post subject: "A" arm c.h.s. Reply with quote

Bill. the biggest advantage I see for this arrangement is the opportunity to use aftermarket automotive components, thus making the cost of a HPS rig much more affordable. I suspect the biggest cost in the current rigs is the cost to fabricate the front suspension. Just my thoughts.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 981
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. I suppose if you did that it would be a lot easier to fabricate.
The trick would be to find the correct components and or the correct geometry so the wheel traveled straight up and down, not lean the wheel from side to side as it travels up and down. Then what, use automotive spindle, brakes and wheel? Maybe race car stuff? Donít think you would be able to find anything to have true center hub steering (TCHS). I think Claude has explored this avenue a little. Question
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:37 pm    Post subject: "A" arm c.h.s. Reply with quote

Maybe someone will chime in on this. I think this would be an interesting discussion. The racing hacks use this type of front suspension. Suspension travel is quite limited, though.
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: "A" arm c.h.s. Reply with quote

arbalest wrote:
Bill. the biggest advantage I see for this arrangement is the opportunity to use aftermarket automotive components, thus making the cost of a HPS rig much more affordable. I suspect the biggest cost in the current rigs is the cost to fabricate the front suspension. Just my thoughts.


But - this kind of suspension requres a specially fabricated sidecar. Using suspension attached to the motorcycle only allows you to attach any sidecar at all - including one you already have.

If you could lift the entire front steering/suspension assembly from some small car and adapt it to sidecar use, that could save some money - but unfortunately finding a suitable car might be difficult. Most small cars these days use McPherson strut front ends, which (a) aren't true center hub units; (b) would be hard to adapt, since the shock/strut sticks way up in the air; and (c) don't work that well even in cars.
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: "A" arm c.h.s. Reply with quote

Paul, if look at the HPS rigs on this site, you will find that the front suspension on most of them, is attached to the sidecar frame.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone did a post a while back here that was called 'a bunch of pictures' or something like that. The pic that was posted was there and some other examples too.
To do an a-frame suspension could be a neat challenge. I think someone could , with not too much effort, adapt a left front corner from a 'donor' car . Can the strut and fab a top a-frame and add a coil over or whatever.
Yes, obtaining center hub steering could be a challenge although some of the front wheel drive cars already have it I am told. Why? Because with center point steering if one front wheel breaks traction the car will not go nuts in the other direction ..or so they say.
Either way center point can be obtasined with wheel offset variations, tire diameter adjustments and so forth which may curtail a ton of fabrication work.
No matter, the thing should work. A-Frame suspensions can be made to do various 'tricks' with different length a-frames, different angled a-frames and so forth. Or they can be adjusted to dial someone right into the weeds..LOL.
Right now my brain is not up to the task of dealing with it but it sure would be an interesting project.
Heck, might as well go nuts and do the rear too. Run th echain to a cross shaft and back to a half shaft back to the rear wheel suspended by a-frames and them make that turkey steer too...yikes... Laughing
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 833
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: "A" arm c.h.s. Reply with quote

arbalest wrote:
Bill. the biggest advantage I see for this arrangement is the opportunity to use aftermarket automotive components, thus making the cost of a HPS rig much more affordable. I suspect the biggest cost in the current rigs is the cost to fabricate the front suspension. Just my thoughts.


Great post and picture. I'd agree that anytime you can use off the shelf parts it would help keep the cost down. One of the problems is that the criteria used in designing a car front-end differs enough from the sidecar application that it would likely be difficult to find something that would work as is. At the outset, the concept seems pretty doable but the nuances to make it work properly for sidecar uses could require significant modifications to off the shelf parts. I think Claude is adapting some off the shelf stuff but has also discovered some detours along the way.
The Other Bill Smile


Quote:
Heck, might as well go nuts and do the rear too. Run th echain to a cross shaft and back to a half shaft back to the rear wheel suspended by a-frames and them make that turkey steer too


Claude...........is there something in the water in your area?? Smile
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:
>>Claude...........is there something in the water in your area?? <<

Yep..ever since the cat fell in the well the snyder county monster garage has never been the same.
You wait until you see mad man Harry's rig with the corvette front end on it..yikes!! Laughing Laughing
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: scrub radius Reply with quote

Some have mentioned the issue of scrub radius with the "A" arm c.h.s. My questions about this is, although an automobile will track straight, even with a scrub radius, because the two wheels cancel each other out, wouldn't tire wear be unacceptable on a front ent end with a scrub radius? My (possibly faulty) logic says that no generally available front suspension would have a scrub radius, given the tire wear factor. This is just my thought experiment. Someone please chime it with observations.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 981
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think having a scrub angle that is the same going left as it is going right and not there when going straight is a good thing. Thinking
If equipped with TCHS scrub angle, if I understand it correctly, scrubbing only occurs when turning, not while going straight. The edge of the tire may lift slightly when turning, but as the tire rolls back under when cornering the tire is flat again. If there is no scrub angel then as the tire rolls under when turning the opposite edge would be lifting off the ground. So scrub angel helps to compensate for G force and keeps the tire flat on the ground. Perhaps even improving tire wear.
I canít prove this theory, havenít been able to watch the bottom of the tire while driving. Maybe someone with a fancy camera and lens could help out. Mount a camera lens like they do on NASCAR cars to watch the tire and suspension. Question
I donít drive a HPS because it is an efficient, or environmentally friendly vehicle. Most are tire and gas hogs. They are just a blast to drive.
Motorcycle Happy
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: HPsidecars Reply with quote

Bill, I drive a BMW(800cc)/Neval conversion rig (50 hp?). The rig gets about 25 mpg. My wife's 240 hp Nissan gets better gas mileage than the rig. You ARE right..it's not about the efficiency, it's about the fun. I am just trying to figure out how to get HP sidecars more affordable.
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