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front upright
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: front upright Reply with quote

Bill,

I noticed (at the Vermont Rally) that you are using an alloy upright as opposed to the upright fabricated from a piece of structural channel that is seen on the Blackbird photos posted on this site. Was there a deficiency in the previous upright or just a desire to do it differently?

Mike Lydon
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: front upright Reply with quote

arbalest wrote:
Bill,

I noticed (at the Vermont Rally) that you are using an alloy upright as opposed to the upright fabricated from a piece of structural channel that is seen on the Blackbird photos posted on this site. Was there a deficiency in the previous upright or just a desire to do it differently?

Mike Lydon


not really a deficiency, just more of a design evolution. The structural channel iteration used a 80's Toyota Corolla rear hub assembly that was getting hard to get and had to be assembled around the backing plate. The newer design uses a readily available BMW Mini Hub that simply bolts to the aluminum "upright / backing plate"

When are we going to see pictures of your project Very Happy Question
Impatient
Bill
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Gazza



Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 78
Location: Durham,England

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any pics of the upright? or is it trade secret ?
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gazza wrote:
any pics of the upright? or is it trade secret ?


Here's some pictures of my C14 in our for sale section.

http://www.hpsidecars.com/ForSale/2009_C14/Album/index.html

You can easily get the general idea of the front end hub assembly from them. The key feature being that the steering axis is at the center of the tire. A detail that we believe makes our CHS one of the best in the world for our needs.

I hope yourself or anyone else reading this won't take this personally or be offended or put off in any way by my position on this but I'm sort of glad you asked me if it was a trade secret. Laughing It's prompted me to finally address the "trade secret issue" because I'm often asked to share details of things I design that I would prefer not to. Sidecaring is a passion and hobby of mine but with the construction of the Bandit, BMW and Kawasaki conversions, came a necessary business side to the hobby, so putting certain things out there in a public way is not always the right thing to do. As an example, we don't build swaybars for sidecars but share what we know about them for sidecars freely. It's always awkward for me as someone who try's to be honest to field questions on specific technology we've developed and consider proprietary.

Truth is, the details of the design are pretty complex. We have several hundred hours of design. machining and development time into our latest CHS assembly using machinery costing hundred's of thousands of $ and state of the art design software. I sincerely hope people will be understanding of my reluctance to publish the intimate details of intellectual property and investment that is the result of nearly a lifetime of building things and nearly 40 years of sidecaring. Smile I spend countless hours on emails, phone calls and questions at rallies etc. sharing whatever information I can about sidecars and learning from other about sidecars as well. Always great fun. Big Grin

Bill
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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:53 pm    Post subject: CHS Reply with quote

Bill,

Not much to show yet. I have been out of work since January, so the project is on the slow track. The tug frame is an R50/5 with an R100 motor. I have the motor and frame. I have had a K bike swingarm modified to fit the R50 frame. I still have to send the R and K driveshafts to a shop in Ontario that will replace the u joint and put the R u joint mounting flange on the K driveshaft. That's where I am at this point. All this project needs is money. It would be so much easier if I could find a job. Know anyone who needs a mechanical designer (Solidworks) with twelve years experience?

Mike
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Gazza



Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 78
Location: Durham,England

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to reply to Zentime,re trade secret, i totally understand about keeping a little knowledge to yourself, and thanks for link to pics, nice bit of kit, well beyond my capabilities so no fear of me copying Laughing
i can see that keeping the steering axis inline vertically with the tyre centre is a bonus, with the kingpin inclination there is an amount of wheel tilting as turning, possible reduction in tyre contact
oh and back to copying, looks like i have used your steering linkage design on my CHS, this is totally down to me browsing google images and absording ideas, honest Embarassed mines a poor imitation based on a stub axle and some bronze bushes Rolling Eyes
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to play Devil's advocate.........
Quote:
can see that keeping the steering axis inline vertically with the tyre centre is a bonus, with the kingpin inclination there is an amount of wheel tilting as turning, possible reduction in tyre contact

and
Quote:
The key feature being that the steering axis is at the center of the tire. A detail that we believe makes our CHS one of the best in the world for our needs.


For a solo bike, with CHS, having the steering axis in the center of the wheel makes perfect sense,,,,however even with a sway bar a rig is going to lean in a turn,,,,so is having some king pin inclination a bad thing? Maybe a sidecar front end should be half of a car, instead of a motorcycle?

having zero scrub radius is probably a given.

Just asking, I'm not a mechanical designer and don't claim to know much about this.

Plus the front end on my rig, with the steering axis in the center of the wheel, works wonderfully.

(its been a little slow here lately)

Mike
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Mike Currin
93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
89 Honda GB 500 (6,700 miles, all original except tires)
67 Triumph 650 chopper
92 Suzuki GS500 (eldest son)
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: CHS Reply with quote

arbalest wrote:
Bill,

Know anyone who needs a mechanical designer (Solidworks) with twelve years experience?

Mike


bummer about being out of work Mike. On the bright side, having 12 years of SW experience puts you in a much better position to find work than engineers with out it. Maybe it's time to bring some of your fabrication in house! Big Grin

Gazza wrote:
to reply to Zentime,re trade secret, i totally understand about keeping a little knowledge to yourself, and thanks for link to pics, nice bit of kit, well beyond my capabilities so no fear of me copying Laughing
i can see that keeping the steering axis inline vertically with the tyre centre is a bonus, with the kingpin inclination there is an amount of wheel tilting as turning, possible reduction in tyre contact
oh and back to copying, looks like i have used your steering linkage design on my CHS, this is totally down to me browsing google images and absording ideas, honest Embarassed mines a poor imitation based on a stub axle and some bronze bushes Rolling Eyes



you haven't used "my" steering linkage design Laughing I look at pictures too Big Grin I'm not sure I invented anything. Everything we've done with the CHS has been done before in some form or another. What you see in our stuff is just our spin on it.

ok docmike, I'll bite

"so is having some king pin inclination a bad thing?"

I'd argue it's done on cars in a large part because of packaging considerations. It's much much easier and cheaper to fit disks, calipers struts etc with the steering axis inclined. I've done these simple models to illustrate my point. I inclined the steering axis 10 deg and set it up to be steering left. with the flat rectangle being the "contact patch" you can see in the second picture with the right side "wheel" the upper right hand "corner" of the contact patch is pointing down and on the left side of the car it is point up. From my point of view, it doesn't seem optimal. Obviously it works ok because millions of cars are made this way but I don't think it's because it's the best way to do it. If it's a good thing, I'm all ears if someone can explain to me why it's a good thing on cars.

From a sidecar point of view it adds another layer of asymmetry I prefer not to have for a variety of reasons. That said, I have Miata spindle parts I may tinker with myself some day. Very Happy



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arbalest



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 92
Location: Windham

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: front upright Reply with quote

Bill,

I would love to have a fab shop. There are one or two locally, but they are backed up with work for the next two years, so it is difficult to get anything done. My problem is I am not a machinist and I don't know how to weld. I would love to take a good welding class, but the local community college course is 70 credit hours and runs about $8000. I am looking into it, however. I also took a composites technician class because I thought it would be a useful skill to have. The school that offered the technician class is offering a composites repair class in November. That is "only" $900, but I am seriously considering it. Again, it is a skill I think I would find useful. I interviewed for a part time job as a composites technician at business with some really neat tools. The company's main business is building molds for composite fabrication (boat hulls, automotive stuff-building a mold for a carbon fiber firewall for a car to sell in the $200k range). They have three 5-axis routers. The largest will handle a part 34' long. How do you do your fabrication? Are you a one man operation (welding, machining, designing), or do you have others working with you?

Mike
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: front upright Reply with quote

arbalest wrote:
Bill,

I would love to have a fab shop. There are one or two locally, but they are backed up with work for the next two years, so it is difficult to get anything done. My problem is I am not a machinist and I don't know how to weld. I would love to take a good welding class, but the local community college course is 70 credit hours and runs about $8000. I am looking into it, however. I also took a composites technician class because I thought it would be a useful skill to have. The school that offered the technician class is offering a composites repair class in November. That is "only" $900, but I am seriously considering it. Again, it is a skill I think I would find useful. I interviewed for a part time job as a composites technician at business with some really neat tools. The company's main business is building molds for composite fabrication (boat hulls, automotive stuff-building a mold for a carbon fiber firewall for a car to sell in the $200k range). They have three 5-axis routers. The largest will handle a part 34' long. How do you do your fabrication? Are you a one man operation (welding, machining, designing), or do you have others working with you?

Mike


I see your dilemma. I know around here high school/trade schools have evening classes where cost is next to nothing or free where you can take basic shop classes in welding, machining etc., that can be useful. I also know any number of people that have gone out and bought themselves a used welder and learned how to weld extremely well on their own. There is a ton of used equipment on craigslist than can be had inexpensively. Where there's a will there's a way. Having the biggest and best equipment, the training is great but some of the best work I've seen is by self taught people with remarkable vision.

We have a small contract machine shop that caters to high tech industries. It's just myself, mu brother and one other guy. The sidecar thing is a sideline we do with friends.
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I also know any number of people that have gone out and bought themselves a used welder and learned how to weld extremely well on their own.


That's kind of what I did, except I never got to the extremely well part, just sort of half #$@ed. Bought a welder, a couple books, and a couple beers for guys I knew that could weld.
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Mike Currin
93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
89 Honda GB 500 (6,700 miles, all original except tires)
67 Triumph 650 chopper
92 Suzuki GS500 (eldest son)
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

docmike wrote:
Just to play Devil's advocate.........
Mike


come on Mike, you sucked me in on that........ Impatient
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 630
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'll concede on the zero inclination king pin angle.

Maybe the best set up would be unequal length A arms, suspened from the sidecar frame, with zero inclination. A Arm lengths set so that camber would change as the rig rolls to maintain the tire flat to the road.

(this wasn't completely a devil's advocate thing, I've been wondering about this for awhile. wether the front suspension on a rig should be half of a car or something else) Question
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93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
89 Honda GB 500 (6,700 miles, all original except tires)
67 Triumph 650 chopper
92 Suzuki GS500 (eldest son)
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cudgel



Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 44
Location: Arcadia, Fl

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone coming to Florida is welcome to view my rig.
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Paul



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 182
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: CHS Reply with quote

zentime wrote:

I'd argue it's done on cars in a large part because of packaging considerations. It's much much easier and cheaper to fit disks, calipers struts etc with the steering axis inclined. Obviously it works ok because millions of cars are made this way but I don't think it's because it's the best way to do it. If it's a good thing, I'm all ears if someone can explain to me why it's a good thing on cars.


I've always figured that, on cars, it doesn't matter. Any odd forces from the left side suspension will be balanced by an opposite odd force from the right side - so car designers are free to cut costs by tilting the steering axis.

After all, if you remove one front tire from your car, and then drive to the store, it will handle *extremely* strangely. Laughing

A better comparison would be the front suspension of a cost-is-no-object race car - such as Formula 1, or the GT Prototype 24-hour cars. Anyone know if they are tilted or vertical?
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