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Center Hub Steering
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is caster:

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Claude Stanley

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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Claude Stanley

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2007
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
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Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took a while to get those pics posted..but..the first one is caster. Caster is typically called out in degrees.

The second picture is camber. Camber is defined as how much the tire is tilited from side to side from plumb or vertical.

The third picture is trail. Trail is typically called out in inches and not degrees. If we look at the picture closely we see that a line is drawn down through the steering neck to ground level. Another line is drawn vertically through the axle. The difference between these lines at ground level is trail.

These example illustrate why it may be best to speak of 'caster' instead of trail when addressing a center hub type front end.
Caster is relayed in degrees
Trail is relayed in inches or mm

Yes ? No?? Smile
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected.
Doe
So using the diagram above I run zero degrees camber and 9 degrees of caster.
Thanks for setting me straight Clauude. I hope I can remember this next time the topic comes up. Very Happy
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High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO BIGGIE AT ALL. Very Happy .Both terms can be used (degrees and inches ) but with caster degrees is a little easier to describe and measure.
Here's my question.
We agree that with more caster we have more camber change when the tire is turned. YThis is due to the inclined stering axis.
The reason I asked abou the ball joint location is this. Bear with me ..LOL.
To get needed caster the upper ball joint must be to the rear of the lower one when viewed from the side. The degree of this angle is the caster. Pretty simple.
Okay, I was looking at a corvette spindle assembly the other day and the spindle itself is NOT in line with the upper and lower ball joints. So..the pivot point of the steering is at the ball joints but the spindle itself is behind them. This creates caster also. (Think about the wheels on a grocery cart)
And everyone says: So what!
Well think about this and tell me if I am full of mud or not. (regarding this not other stuff..everyone knows I am full of mud for many reasons).
If we can create caster as desired and still keep the ball joints vertical when seen from the side by using an offset spindle would not the tire then stay totally flat on the ground rather than titling up on one side due to the camber change created by caster when the wheel was steered?
Any tire will provide only 'x' amount of traction. This traction can be used up by braking, cornering or, on the rear, acceleration. But..there is only so much of it to go around. The low profile tires have a light sidewall (one ply) to increase the slip angle. This has to be done as the sidewalls are so small and there is not enough 'meat' there to flex like an old 70 series tire would. This is a good thing but when the slip angle is excceded then traction is broken. We are relying on the contact patch of the tire to keep us intact with the road surface. If we can keep the contact patch fully on the ground and as large as possible we can retain traction longer.
So...is it possible to create the needed caster by offsetting the spindle and keeping the ball joints straigh up and down? Would it be an advantage? Would there be a disadvantage and if so what is it?
Curious Claude Neutral
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way i know of not to have any camber change would be to have no caster, like a shoping cart. The problem with that is then it would not be easy to drive. With no caster or trail it would be hard to keep going in a strait line. I would guess it would steer too quick.
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
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Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the wheels on a grocery cart do have caster. They are called caster wheels.
Look at the first picture and imagine the ball joints on the vertical line. Then imagine the wheel centerline offset to the rear 6 degrees. Isn't this still caster?
Regardless..I do not know the answer...but..the rig we are presently building will have the option to adjust all of this. We is gunna find out something...LOL..... Bring a rope and a winch to MV in case this doesn't work.. Very Happy
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
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2007
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First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you saying now, your saying keep the balljoints straight up and down but move them in front of the tire centerline. Yes?
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude, Iím having one of those days. I could not see what you were trying to say. I had one idea stuck in my head and nothing you were saying made sense.
Sorry, Moron Alert now that I get it I see what you mean. Not that Iím thinking clearly today but that sound like a good idea, as long as is on the center if the tire left to right. I think if the pivot was to the right side it would be trying to turn left all the time, trying to straighten out. Question
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
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Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Sorry , I am a guy who talks with his hands a lot and draws pictures of everything..this can be tough doing with just words .. Thinking
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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docmike



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK,

I see what you're saying, if the upper ball joint is straight above the lower, and the spindle is offset towards the rear. Is that zero caster??, but there is still trail?? Seems like you would still get the self centering effect of caster/trail.

still thinkin
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
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Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,
The idea is to retain the benefit of the caster but not have the camber change when the wheel is turned left or right.
We shall see what happens. I keep reminding myself that I am usually the guy who gets the grocery cart with the weird wobbling wheel on it....hmmmm
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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Milow



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Chino, CA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject: Center Hub steering Reply with quote

I have a GL1800 with a Hannigan sidecar and I'm intrested in changing the front to CHS. I've been able to find LL front ends but were do I look to find a CHS frontend for my Goldwing GL1800?
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bmcsheehy



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swaybar2002 wrote:
Mike,
The idea is to retain the benefit of the caster but not have the camber change when the wheel is turned left or right.
We shall see what happens. I keep reminding myself that I am usually the guy who gets the grocery cart with the weird wobbling wheel on it....hmmmm


Claude,
Going by the diagrams above, wouldnít you think that when you turn into a corner you would want to have some negative camber. As the tire rolls under a little, it would then be flat. Where as if no camber when the tire rolls under there would be more pressure on the out side edge of the tire. I donít know, just a thought.
Poke
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Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
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1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
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