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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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This is caster:
_________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Took a while to get those pics posted..but..the first one is caster. Caster is typically called out in degrees.
The second picture is camber. Camber is defined as how much the tire is tilited from side to side from plumb or vertical.
The third picture is trail. Trail is typically called out in inches and not degrees. If we look at the picture closely we see that a line is drawn down through the steering neck to ground level. Another line is drawn vertically through the axle. The difference between these lines at ground level is trail.
These example illustrate why it may be best to speak of 'caster' instead of trail when addressing a center hub type front end.
Caster is relayed in degrees
Trail is relayed in inches or mm
Yes ? No?? _________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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I stand corrected.
So using the diagram above I run zero degrees camber and 9 degrees of caster.
Thanks for setting me straight Clauude. I hope I can remember this next time the topic comes up. _________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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NO BIGGIE AT ALL. .Both terms can be used (degrees and inches ) but with caster degrees is a little easier to describe and measure.
Here's my question.
We agree that with more caster we have more camber change when the tire is turned. YThis is due to the inclined stering axis.
The reason I asked abou the ball joint location is this. Bear with me ..LOL.
To get needed caster the upper ball joint must be to the rear of the lower one when viewed from the side. The degree of this angle is the caster. Pretty simple.
Okay, I was looking at a corvette spindle assembly the other day and the spindle itself is NOT in line with the upper and lower ball joints. So..the pivot point of the steering is at the ball joints but the spindle itself is behind them. This creates caster also. (Think about the wheels on a grocery cart)
And everyone says: So what!
Well think about this and tell me if I am full of mud or not. (regarding this not other stuff..everyone knows I am full of mud for many reasons).
If we can create caster as desired and still keep the ball joints vertical when seen from the side by using an offset spindle would not the tire then stay totally flat on the ground rather than titling up on one side due to the camber change created by caster when the wheel was steered?
Any tire will provide only 'x' amount of traction. This traction can be used up by braking, cornering or, on the rear, acceleration. But..there is only so much of it to go around. The low profile tires have a light sidewall (one ply) to increase the slip angle. This has to be done as the sidewalls are so small and there is not enough 'meat' there to flex like an old 70 series tire would. This is a good thing but when the slip angle is excceded then traction is broken. We are relying on the contact patch of the tire to keep us intact with the road surface. If we can keep the contact patch fully on the ground and as large as possible we can retain traction longer.
So...is it possible to create the needed caster by offsetting the spindle and keeping the ball joints straigh up and down? Would it be an advantage? Would there be a disadvantage and if so what is it?
Curious Claude |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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The only way i know of not to have any camber change would be to have no caster, like a shoping cart. The problem with that is then it would not be easy to drive. With no caster or trail it would be hard to keep going in a strait line. I would guess it would steer too quick. _________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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But the wheels on a grocery cart do have caster. They are called caster wheels.
Look at the first picture and imagine the ball joints on the vertical line. Then imagine the wheel centerline offset to the rear 6 degrees. Isn't this still caster?
Regardless..I do not know the answer...but..the rig we are presently building will have the option to adjust all of this. We is gunna find out something...LOL..... Bring a rope and a winch to MV in case this doesn't work.. _________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I see what you saying now, your saying keep the balljoints straight up and down but move them in front of the tire centerline. Yes? _________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Claude, I’m having one of those days. I could not see what you were trying to say. I had one idea stuck in my head and nothing you were saying made sense.
Sorry, now that I get it I see what you mean. Not that I’m thinking clearly today but that sound like a good idea, as long as is on the center if the tire left to right. I think if the pivot was to the right side it would be trying to turn left all the time, trying to straighten out. _________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. Sorry , I am a guy who talks with his hands a lot and draws pictures of everything..this can be tough doing with just words .. _________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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docmike
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 630 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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OK,
I see what you're saying, if the upper ball joint is straight above the lower, and the spindle is offset towards the rear. Is that zero caster??, but there is still trail?? Seems like you would still get the self centering effect of caster/trail.
still thinkin _________________ Mike Currin
93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
89 Honda GB 500 (6,700 miles, all original except tires)
67 Triumph 650 chopper
92 Suzuki GS500 (eldest son) |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Mike,
The idea is to retain the benefit of the caster but not have the camber change when the wheel is turned left or right.
We shall see what happens. I keep reminding myself that I am usually the guy who gets the grocery cart with the weird wobbling wheel on it....hmmmm _________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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Milow
Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 1 Location: Chino, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: Center Hub steering |
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I have a GL1800 with a Hannigan sidecar and I'm intrested in changing the front to CHS. I've been able to find LL front ends but were do I look to find a CHS frontend for my Goldwing GL1800? |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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swaybar2002 wrote: | Mike,
The idea is to retain the benefit of the caster but not have the camber change when the wheel is turned left or right.
We shall see what happens. I keep reminding myself that I am usually the guy who gets the grocery cart with the weird wobbling wheel on it....hmmmm |
Claude,
Going by the diagrams above, wouldn’t you think that when you turn into a corner you would want to have some negative camber. As the tire rolls under a little, it would then be flat. Where as if no camber when the tire rolls under there would be more pressure on the out side edge of the tire. I don’t know, just a thought.
_________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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