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docmike
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 630 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject: is wider better? |
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If its true for HPS as they say in the Pontiac commercials wider is better. Other than aesthetics, is there any reason not to offset the front wheel to the left?
If it was only an inch or two it wouldn't be noticeable to the casual observer, but would it make a difference?
Mike _________________ Mike Currin
93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
89 Honda GB 500 (6,700 miles, all original except tires)
67 Triumph 650 chopper
92 Suzuki GS500 (eldest son) |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: is wider better? |
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docmike wrote: | ... it wouldn't be noticeable to the casual observer, but would it make a difference?
Mike |
I would notice, and tell everyone.
If you want to make your rig wider, why dont you just move the sidecar over? _________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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IanJ
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 52 Location: Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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My guess is that it would make the rig handle differently. It might improve some things (like straight-forward acceleration), but it might make cornering bad-different. But then, 1 or 2 inches might not do anything noticeable with the sidecar attached.
I'm just thinking about this in the sense that, if you were to continue that trend to the extreme and offset the front wheel way out to the side, so the rear wheel is an equal lateral distance from the front wheel and the sidecar wheel, you'd have an inverted trike, sort of. This would tend to balance out some of the turning forces from the sidecar, but not all of them, unless you put an equal weight out that far as well. But it would also make going around corners, particularly left hand corners (assuming the boat is on the right) dangerous, unless you moved the sidecar wheel forward a lot.
Overall, my guess is that this is a solution looking for a problem. _________________ 2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack |
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Paul
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 182 Location: Utah
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:45 am Post subject: Probably worse |
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Even cars run a wider track at the rear than the front. Moving the front wheel towards the middle (like a trike) could improve things - or at least make things more symmetrical. But making a three-tracked vehicle with the front wheel all the way to the left is going to make left hand bends a major problem.
Wider also isn't better aerodynamically.
I also wouldn't hold up a Pontiac idea as an example of good engineering |
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LD Hack
Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 5 Location: Grand Marais, MN
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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I have an EML Tourist T on a Honda GL1100, and the previous owner wideded the sidecar frame by about 7 inches. I have it set up with no pull, 3/8" toe in, and it handles fine.
I understand you are thinking of offsetting your front wheel by a few inches. No experience here, except I do know my front and rear wheels are offset by maybe 1/2 inch or a little more. My rear wheel is offset to the left of my steer tire. |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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My rig was the narrowest one in Maggie valley, and I had no passenger.
My front and rear tire are in line and in the middle.
I had no problems keeping up or going fast. _________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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Ralph
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 603 Location: Lexington, Ky
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Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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hehehe Bill it would have been harder to keep up the first two days _________________ "So Soon Old & So Late Smart" |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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No Comment.
_________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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Ralph
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 603 Location: Lexington, Ky
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:02 am Post subject: |
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_________________ "So Soon Old & So Late Smart" |
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IanJ
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 52 Location: Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Paul: For what it's worth, it was my understanding that most cars have a wider front end than rear end, not the other way around. I haven't ever verified this, but I've often seen it while driving behind another vehicle. It would be easy to check with a tape measure and a couple of friendly car owners.
And yeah, I'm not sure Pontiac's marketing slogans should be taken as guidance on automotive performance. _________________ 2006 Ninja 250
1982 Honda Goldwing/EML GT Hack |
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docmike
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 630 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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My original thinking on this was that putting the wheels farther to the outside would reduce the tendency to lift the sidecar in right handers. (Since adding the sway bar a while back this has been much less of a problem.)
From what I've read so far, if the front was moved to the left you would end up with a T-Rex, which would be more symmetrical or moving the wheel right would give you a standard trike which would be more symmetrical.
Probably best to leave well enough alone.
Mike
(who's various other bikes and cars includes 2 1979 PONTIAC TRANS AMS.) _________________ Mike Currin
93 BMW K1100RS / EML Speed 2000
89 Honda GB 500 (6,700 miles, all original except tires)
67 Triumph 650 chopper
92 Suzuki GS500 (eldest son) |
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bmcsheehy
Joined: 22 Jan 2005 Posts: 991 Location: Massachusetts USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mike,
My thinking is this.
Moving the front wheel to the left or further away would help right-handers but cause the back tire to lift more on left-handers.
My limited experience driving my HPS.
It is far more dangerous or scary to lift the back tire than the sidecar wheel.
Plus like you said, the sway bar does a very nice job keeping the sidecar wheel down.
If you move the front wheel to the left, moving the sidecar wheel forward should compensate for moving the wheel to the left, but then make it harder to steer.
The next rig I build, I think I would try to lower the center of gravity using smaller tires and make it wider by using a wider sidecar.
Lower the center of gravity using smaller tires or loose some weight.
All this may not matter, It’ just my opinion.
I hope some other members will submit their opinions as well.
_________________ Bill
High Performance Sidecaring... ...There is nothing "HACKED" about it.
2006 ZX-14 / HANNIGAN HP.
2011 Concourse / California Friendship III.
2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250s
1936 Ford Fordoor Humpback
www.Yankee-Engineering.com |
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Ralph
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 603 Location: Lexington, Ky
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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"It is far more dangerous and scary to lift the back tire than the sidecar wheel."
You dam right my friend, when that back wheel get lite things will go to hell quickly. hehe like shutting down in a hard left. Boy U is smart _________________ "So Soon Old & So Late Smart" |
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swaybar2002
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 380 Location: Central Pa.
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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think Bill M is right about moving the sidecar wheel forward a little. Draw the shape of the rig as viewed from above and then draw the tip over lines. There has to be merit to moving the front wheel to the left. The T-Rex example is good food for thought too.
Heck make adjustable or various mounting options for the front swingarms and scoot it all the way to the left. Make sure before you really haul it into the first tight corner at warp speed you have a friend wth a video camera following you. If you crash you might as well get it on tape.
Keep that rear wheel down..the pucker factor when it comes up far outweighs any advanges that may have been projected on the fun meter. _________________ Claude Stanley
Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/
2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming |
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SRADkneedragger
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 15 Location: West Texas
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Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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OK
Day 1 and I'm allready here with a stupid NOOB question.
F-1 racing sidehacks(although more car than motorcycle)have the front wheel(hub center steer) offset to the sidecar side by what appears to be several inches. How does this affect the steering of the vehicle as a whole? Also how would offsetting the rear a few inches AWAY from the car affect handling? _________________ If your not living on the edge your taking up too much space |
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