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Sidecar wheel steering

 
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:16 pm    Post subject: Sidecar wheel steering Reply with quote

Some HPS rigs utilize steering of the sidecar wheel. (Comanchee comes to mind).
It would seem as though more lead could be run with this setup, is that being done? What are the pros and cons of steering the sidecar wheel?
Why are the european rally rigs not using it more thasn they do? Does it create any concerns over more conventional systems when traction is broke?
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
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2007
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First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
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Powersl@ve



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 40
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John (sidecarmaniac) can answer this best I think, he ownes a GTS-Sidebike with a steering sidecar wheel.

I can imagine that it makes steering easier and the tire will wear less...
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Sidecarmaniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 13
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Sidecar wheel steering Reply with quote

swaybar2002 wrote:
Some HPS rigs utilize steering of the sidecar wheel. (Comanchee comes to mind).
It would seem as though more lead could be run with this setup, is that being done? What are the pros and cons of steering the sidecar wheel?
Why are the european rally rigs not using it more thasn they do? Does it create any concerns over more conventional systems when traction is broke?


There is almost no muscle power needed to change the direction of my GTS-MegaComete. It will react very quick to the handlebar commands like it's controlled by my mind. Mmm,... maybe that's how it really works in stead of all that high tech thingy Very Happy
New pilots called it often a bit nervous steering. But you get used to it very fast.
At speeds from about 175 km/hour (109 m/h) the steering is a bit to light but at my daily cruise speed of 140 km/hour (87 m/h) it's just how I like it.

You've always beware of the "bumps" you can receive back from the sidecarwheel to the handlebar. But is no 1 to 1 effect it's less, well that's how I feel it, anyway it's easy to correct.
Lifespan rear tire 12000 km (7450 miles) Toyo 195-45-14 inch.
Sidecar tire 15000 km (9300 miles) Toyo 195-45-14 inch.
Front tire maybe 80000 km ? (49700 miles ?) I've changed it before it was worn out.

Almost everything is fully adjustable on my outfit, so I don't know how much steering behavior is due the steering sidecarwheel.
It's more complex to build such a steering system and it consumes more space then a conventional sidecarwheel.

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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply JOHN. Have you ever gotten into an oversteer situation where you had to coutersteer. Has the back end ever broke loose and you had to correct it...or even the front end..If so was it really easy to overcorrect. If so do you think the sidecar wheel steering had anything to do with the overcorrection?
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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JayBoy



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Lexington, KY

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind most of my comments come from a rider's perspective more so then an engineer...but I think that a sidecar with sidecar wheel steering would have to have less drag (and quicker steering) then one without. Except for the fact that the sidecar wheel sets a little further back it would be like having only one of your front car tires turning, wouldn't it?

As for the oversteer question, all things being equal, sidecar steering would have more oversteer then one without...again all things being equal, shocks, tire pressure, driver etc. However, that would not necessarily mean that it has oversteer, just more so then one without.

With my FJ & SideBike Comete I would say that it has a tendency to understeer more so then oversteer, however, if you drive into the turn hard and snap the handle bars it will break loose the rear and slide. If you stay in the throttle it can easily be controlled/ corrected. The correction/ counter steering is even a little easier with sidecar steering. Again, all things being equal.


Quote:
It's more complex to build such a steering system and it consumes more space then a conventional sidecarwheel.


This along with the additional weight could be why some ralley racers don't use it. I had the opportunity to exchange emails with Scott Whitney [url]www.hogwildracing.com [/url] awhile back about his set up, of course offroad is very different then what we're doing, but he made a comment that the suspension is more impacted by the passenger then anything else.

Quote:
It would seem as though more lead could be run with this setup


What do you mean by lead?
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Sidecarmaniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 13
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swaybar2002 wrote:
Thanks for the reply JOHN. Have you ever gotten into an oversteer situation where you had to coutersteer.

Riding on roads covered with snow the outfit only wants to go to the right. In this case I have to steer to the left and play with very little throttle movements to go straight ahead. Going to the left is almost impossible then. The MZ outfit is far the best in this kind of situations.

With normal or (a litte bit) wet road conditions, only at high speeds, the front tire looses contact with the road sometimes for a split mili-second.
It's easy to correct. I did espect that the shape of the sidecar would give more downforce on the front and sidecar tire at increasing speed. But it's not. There must be a lifting force at higher speeds.
Maybe speed adjustable spoilers, wings as next high tech innovation for our HP rigs? Very Happy
swaybar2002 wrote:
Has the back end ever broke loose and you had to correct it...or even the front end..If so was it really easy to overcorrect. If so do you think the sidecar wheel steering had anything to do with the overcorrection?

The rear end did brake out once with no chance to correct it. It was in Germany on the Nurnburg circuit with a 110 kg sidecarpassenger and going as fast as possible. In a left curve the down force on the rear tire was gone and the outfit was gliding for about 6 meters with the front pointing more then 90 degrees in wrong direction.
By my former FJ1200-Fastline outfit (leading link and original tire) the front tire was the limit in left curves, on the GTS-MegaComete it's the rear tire.
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Last edited by Sidecarmaniac on Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay wrote:
>>What do you mean by lead?<<

Lead (leed) ..hoe far the centerline of the sidecar wheel is in front of the bike rear wheel. It seems like with a steering sidecar wheel more lead would be possible. A possible stabalizing force on turns away from the sidecar (lefties).
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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JayBoy



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 234
Location: Lexington, KY

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lead (leed) ..hoe far the centerline of the sidecar wheel is in front of the bike rear wheel. It seems like with a steering sidecar wheel more lead would be possible.


Ahh. Can't help you on that question. Maybe the Yankee Engineer can handle that one! Smile
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe the Yankee Engineer can handle that one! Smile


guess that be me Smile

sure, with SCWS you can run more lead.
YE
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swaybar2002



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Central Pa.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Bill,
Hey, Yankee engineer...I want to know what tire you have on the rear of your rig in the avatar. I been watchin you burn donuts with it for a week now and it still hasn't blown out..amazing. Thinking
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Claude Stanley

Founder: Internet Sidecar Owners Klub
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/

2007
I.S.O.K Sidecar RON-DEE-VOO III ..
First full weekend in August!! Thursday through Sunday!!
Weikert, Pa ..more details coming
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zentime



Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Location: Massachusetts USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swaybar2002 wrote:
To Bill,
Hey, Yankee engineer...I want to know what tire you have on the rear of your rig in the avatar. I been watchin you burn donuts with it for a week now and it still hasn't blown out..amazing. Thinking


unumtanium........... Cool

anyone want it with sound, let me know and I'll send it to you!
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Ralph



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 584
Location: Lexington, Ky

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude, Bill has all the cool stuff Smile
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legalr



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 163
Location: Wallingford, Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject: Sidecar wheel steering Reply with quote

Sidecarmaniac said:
Quote:
Almost everything is fully adjustable on my outfit, so I don't know how much steering behavior is due the steering sidecarwheel.


Can you adjust the trail [nachlauf] on the steering sidecar wheel? If you can, how many millimeters do you prefer on that wheel? Do you use the same amount of trail on your bike front wheel too?
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